Julian Jaynes Society: Exploring Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind Theory since 1997

I was actually introduced to Jaynes theories by Christian friends, and I thought there might be quite a bit of dialog by Christians here. Are there any Christians here who would like to discuss Jaynesian theory in relation to Biblical topics?

A strong theory is that of bicarmel breakdown in relation to the flood, anyone else thinking about this?
I also saw a comment in relation to Western thinking and monotheism. I think there is a relation of monotheism and the personal sovereignty concept of early America. Does personal(more to say physical) and corporate(more to say philosophical) liberty effect the conscious, or what are the neurological effects, conditions, feedbacks?

Just some paths of thought. Love to hear from all!

MMS
Yours in Christ

It has always been interesting to me how people with different backgrounds can have completely different interpretations of Jaynes's book.

For example, I once came across a Creationist website that talks about Jaynes's theory as support for "Christian Catastrophism" — as support for events such as the Biblical flood. Others view the hallucinations as the literal voices of the gods, not hallucinations that were simply interpreted as the voices of the gods.

At the complete other end of the spectrum, many feel Jaynes's theory offers a psychological explanation for religion, as a sub topic to the main discussion of the origin of consciousness, i.e. the gods are the psychological invention of man in response to auditory hallucinations.

This was perhaps due to the fact that Jaynes was somewhat vague and ambigious about his own religious views and always side-stepped the question when it came up after his lectures.

After reading Jaynes, what is your interpretation?

It is natural that each person sees the world through the lens of their own personal experience. In the US there are over 4,600 denominations of Christianity alone, so there is diversity even within what appears to be a large homogenous group.

Personally, I have no problem with the voices of "god" in the bible being auditory hallucinations. I don't find that any less powerful than a booming voice from the clouds. Most people see God as a white bearded man sitting on a cloud directing the actions of the universe, but the real truth is out there "for those with eyes to see and ears to hear". How much wisdom resides in the human form? How much knowledge of this universe and its creative functions is already contained in our brains and bodies? If my right brain says something, then I damn well better listen. That is what I am trying to work on right now, how to listen to what I am saying to myself. I see many things that Jesus said in a totally different light than I did as a young man. I see the concept of being born again in a completely different way than I did before. I think we have to learn how to die, or how to enter that process of quieting the rational mind (which happens while dying) so that we can hear the still small voice of god in ourselves. Thats just my take though. I wouldn't want to say that this is the correct interpretation or that there is not more that I have yet to find. But it satisfies my skeptical mind as having value and truth.

Hey, I have to admit that until reading the chapter on the mouth washing ceremonies of Mesopotamia, I was a firm believer in God, not a full scale christian, but I was 100% sure God existed. I'm not so sure about that now. Jaynes provides a lot of details that could be against creationism when he claims that the Mesopotamians believed they heard the wooden statues talk to them.

I question creationism because of this: Who's to say that Moses didn't hallucinate a voice speaking from a burning bush?

I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about this, I honestly didn't know how to start this conversation, my little abstract seems a bit weak and juvenile, but I just wanted to get this conversation underway. So....feel free to reply.

Your post is neither weak, nor juvenile. We are all looking for the truth. I dont have time to respond fully at the moment but I look forward to discussing this in more detail soon.

RE: Moses hallucinating.

This was proposed not too long ago by Professor Benny Shannon at Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He suggested hallucinogens were involved, but those familiar with Jaynes's bicameral mind theory of course know this would not be necessary.

If you are interested in exploring this subject further, I would recommend the book Muses, Madmen and Prophets by Daniel Smith as well as the sections on religion and the bicameral mind in Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness.

Hey, thanks. I'll be sure to check out both.

Hi,
I am rereading Jayne's book. I have some fundamentalist friends who pray for things like what they should do to get a job etc. Could this type of prayer be a holdover from prebreakdown days? My other group has a more metaphorical view of religion and prayer is seen more as meditating rather than shopping for help.

I count myself a Christian and I am willing.

Marcel makes good recommendations.

One of the most obvious biblical references to what Jaynes writes about, of course, is the story in Genesis about Adam's and Eve's temptation and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. To me, this is the best metaphorical depiction of "the breakdown".

I am a Christian. It seems to me that in religion, there are really 2 things going on. One is the sphere that can be subjected to objective analysis. Eg, the events mentioned in a religious text, like when did the Exodus from Egypt happen? And alot of the stuff that people talk about in Christian apologetics, for example. Such things are objective questions.
On the other hand, there is the other part which is very subjective, the part involving the actual practice of religion by an adherent who attends a church service, for example. I used to attend a church where the pastor had a very authoritarian, "direct from God" style of preaching. I know not all churches are like this; some are more discussion-based and democratic. But in the authoritarian case, this is kind of where I would like Jaynes' theories to be brought to bear. I feel that in the authoritarian style, the "line from God" effect is so direct that it literally bypasses left-brain analysis. I have been searching for a long time for a rational understanding of religious experience, and I feel that Jaynes was on to something. I would love to hear if anyone else has a similar experience with authoritarian-style churches.