Julian Jaynes Society Forum

Julian Jaynes Society Discussion Forum: Exploring Consciousness and the Bicameral Mind Theory since 1997

Click "Register" to create a free account to post in this forum. Julian Jaynes Society Members: Please note your Member's Area login is NOT used for this forum. Learn more about Jaynes' theory at julianjaynes.org        
It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:39 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Vestiges of Bicameralism in the Pirahã
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 3:16 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:03 pm
Posts: 274
The book Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle by Daniel L. Everett contains descriptions vestiges of bicameralism among the Pirahãs, an isolated tribe living in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest:

"The Pirahãs change names from time to time, usually when individual Pirahãs trade names with spirits they encounter in the jungle." — p. 9

"Spirits can tell the village what it should not have done or what it should not do. Spirits can single out individuals or simply talk to the group as a whole. Pirahãs listen carefully and often follow the exhortations of the kaoaibogi. A spirit might say something like "Don't want Jesus. He is not Pirahã," or "Don't hunt downriver tomorrow," or things that are commonly shared values, such as "Don't eat snakes." — p. 112

"They have individual spirits, but they believe that they have seen these spirits, and they believe they see them regularly. When we looked into it, we saw that these aren't invisible spirits that they're seeing. They are entities that take on the shape of things in the environment. They'll call a jaguar a spirit, or a tree a spirit, depending on the kinds of properties that it has." — p. 134

"Throughout history people have claimed to see these supernatural entities [have had bicameral experiences — Mod]. The Pirahãs are not that much different, if at all. In the prologue, I gave one example of how the Pirahãs are eyewitnesses to spirits, and I have suggested that these spiritual encounters fall under the principle of immediacy of experience [lack spatialization of time — Mod]. But the Pirahãs encounter many kinds of spirits." — p. 137

"The kind of spirit most commonly spoken of is the kaoaibogi (fast mouth). This spirit is responsible for a range of good and bad things that happen to the Pirahãs. It can kill them or give them useful advice, depending on a whim." — p. 137

"Pirahãs see spirits in their mind, literally. They talk to spirits, literally. Whatever anyone else might think of these claims, all Pirahãs will say that they experience spirits." — p. 141

"Since for the Pirahãs spirits and dreams are immediate experiences, they often talk about them. Talk of the spiritual for the Pirahãs is not talk of fiction but talk of real events." — p. 213

"Their own beliefs were not in the fantastic and miraculous but in spirits that were in fact creatures of their environment, creatures that did normal kinds of things." — p. 271


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vestiges of Bicameralism in the Pirahã
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:09 am
Posts: 11
Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. I read the book and some articles by Everett in the mean time and I am quite impressed.

I am not so sure that the book answers questions on the nature (or origin) of consciousness. Surely, the importance of spirits, the lack of spatialization of time, would be indications of bicamerality. But I find it hard to believe that the Pirahãs really lacked consciousness. One would think that this is something that Everett would have noticed.

On the other hand, the way they live they certainly do not need consciousness. So why should they have picked it up when they refuse to pick up fishing techniques or religion?

One way to falsify Jaynes would be to find old records of dreams in the modern conscious way. I wonder if the reverse is true. Do Pirahãs dream like we do? Unfortunately, I find the story of the dream inconclusive, p. 214. But what does it mean: "With respect to me therefore the big Brazilian woman disappeared". (I know, even asking questions like this, can easily result in accusations of racism.)

To me the most interesting part is Everett’s claim that the language lacks recursiveness. And that therefore the Universal Grammar/Language instinct paradigm is wrong. This is refreshing. The fact that Chomsky says that Everett is a charlatan almost certainly means that he himself has run out of arguments.

So hopefully Universal Grammar will look just as ridiculous to the next generation as behaviorism looks to us. And I am sure it is not possible to understand consciousness without understanding the true nature of language.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Julian Jaynes Collection                 Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness                 The Minds of the Bible                 Abstracts from the 2013 Julian Jaynes Society Conference on Consciousness and Bicameral Studies



Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007~ phpBB Group