benjamindavidsteele wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:18 pm
Tanker62 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:14 amTHanks for your explanation, it's rare to see in-depth explanations from an actual Muslim, that sort of long text often comes from people who have never read the Quran, don't speak Arabic, don't talk to Muslims yet are world class experts
You might be interested in my perspective. I've been thinking about Jaynes' work for a long time. But over the past decade, conversations with an Islamic friend led me to consider the relationship of Islam to Jaynesian scholarship. Islam represents an interesting example as a relatively later monotheistic religion, long after the Axial Age. It does seem different from Judaism and Christianity. And that difference seems to touch upon what Jaynes wrote about in terms of a growing distance in the experience of the divine.
I was raised Christian, although an extremely liberal and new agey variety, that of the Unity Church. I never lost faith nor had a deconversion experience, if I slowly grew away from my early religious experience. These days I'm spiritually and intellectually agnostic about organized religion, while being a weak atheist about the existence of a monotheistic god (neither believing nor disbelieving). So, I have no interest in defending or attacking any particular religion or religiosity. My curiosity and skepticism is equal opportunity, and held lightly.
https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... ssing-god/
https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... e-hearing/
https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... -religion/
Very interesting perspective, Sir
1- First, and before anything, we should reemphasize a very important point about the bicameral mind theory.
The computer-like (Godlike) power of the right hemisphere, that sometimes proves to be a very accurate (subconscious) analysis and decision-making !!
Remember again Jaynes' words about the great scientific discoveries, the scientists' three subconscious Bs, and also the auditory hallucinations that occured to jaynes himself (and helped to solve the riddle of consciousness, according to him)
What are these?
If this have something common with what some theoretical physicists say about the universe as a quantum computer;
(Well,
that's GOD,
in flesh
and blood) !
So, this point is obviously underestimated and undervalued in the discussions about the theory.
In another words: This insight proclaimed for the right hemisphere.. what's the explanation for it?
It reminds us of Newton's gravity till Einstein, and Quantum physics till now (It Works.. yet , not explained).
Another phrase:
This doesn't explain God out, while letting the door open to explain him IN.
2- What's God?
I think you can have 8.1 billion conception of God (that's the world population now)
But, if we talk about it philosophically and logically, God (if He will ever exist) , he/she/it should be one & only.
And "one & only" means not that idea conceived by the majority of the followers of traditional religions (A personal God that's different from the universe)
Actually, saying "one and only" means literally: ( Nothing but it/him/her ). Yes, that's a sort of the pantheism of Leibniz. (One God / One Verse)
Maybe right, maybe wrong.
But, I humbly think, if will be there a solution to the riddle, it would be the only one.
3- What about Islam (excluding Sufism, as you said)
Actually, Benjamin,
By excluding Sufism, you are already excluding Islam
A. I really appreciate your conclusions, from a discussion with a muslim friend (and I see well that any misunderstanding is excused).
But really, the situation in Islam doesn't differ so much from its christian counterpart.
And in your words:
Islam, also [was filled with diverse groups and disagreements, and that has only increased over time] .. literally.
B. Islam doesn't differ much from Christianity and Judaism.
In fact, about half of the verses of the Quran are Biblical quotes rephrased in Arabic; a fact that led many of opponents of the prophet (in his life), and many Christians today, to accuse him of "just rewriting the Bible in Arabic prose"
C. Jesus in Quran .. is the Main Figure, indeed.
And the apparent conflict of Islam with the concept of godness of Jesus is just a critical philosophy.
(.i.e. He is divine, fully divine .. but a red line is drawn here: he is Not The GOD .. if we take it to the area of rigid philosophy)
And when you dive deeply into this doctrine (In Sufism/Christianity of Islam), you will discover that esoterically, things are different.
And YES, YESus was a god. (small g intended)
And I'm not really playing with words and the discussion of this point is intended to demonstrate the essential idea in Islam. (& I will try hardly to make it as clear as possible).
Or to say it like that:
Jesus came to amend Judaism, And Muhammad came to advocate Jesus.
(You are very welcome to object to it, and I promise you with satisfying answers.
And the father/master transformation in the doctrine of God/human relationship is actually not a big difference .. again .. a critical philosophy)
But Jesus is the culmination of the progress of humanity in Quran (The divine human who became like God: the Resurrected and the Resurrector/ the Immortal and the Revivor of the mortals)
Not just Jesus, but (YES .. US, also).
And all the humanity according to Islam, are endowed with the gift of being able to be like Jesus (gods: Images of God)
D- And to make sure that I'm not wandering so far. Let's return to the concept of God.
Let me ask you:
From the Greeks till now;
& for everybody who believes in God; what's the main criteria that all of them would agree about?
Answer:-
Just one.
It is.. (MIND)
That's there is (a mind/a being with a mind) that created, mends and judges the universe.
Well, Mind is also the common criteria of all humans (that's the image of God, I see)
Again, maybe right, maybe wrong.
However, this is the essence of the message of Islam (and all religions, I think)
E- Then, why this misunderstanding of Islam?
It's a very long story. I can't indulge in it here (in a first-hand manner). But, if you would ask any question, it would be for my great pleasure.
However, I think You may need to read about the political and military conflicts that occured after the prophet of Islam, to know that (as in all world religions) the majority of the followers of Islam themselves don't understand (and don't have the time, the power, or even, the wish
to understand anything about it)
And most of the leaders of all its sects, their ideas and concepts are mainly shaped by the different political conflicts that occured across the ages.
Imam Ali (Cousin of the prophet & husband of his daughter & father of his grandchildren) says:
(People are slaves of worldly life, and religion is a licking on their tongue. Till an inflection strikes, you'll barely see a religious man)
So, it's not easy to take a good picture (not even full) about any religion, even from a sheikh or a religious teacher (not mention a secular person)
And no offense is intended to anyone (but, it's the truth)
F- Why excluding Sufism= excluding Islam
Not only because Sufism across the history represents a major sect of the islamic world, till now.
But, because the historical origins of Sufism are well known to be from Imam Ali and the family of Prophet Muhammad.
I means it originated from the house of the prophet himself (Shia' like Iran also doesn't differ so much from Sufism except in carrying the same ideology plus a political agenda).
So, it's obviously unjust and unfair to consider Sufism a minor sect of Islam !
4- Absent god in Islam?
A- If you depend on the idea in Islam about (No prophet after me), to conclude that it ushers the collapse of bicameral mind and the evanescence of the voice of God in Islam, you are obviously mistaken.
In Islam, the hearing of guiding voices or even the seeing of angels or souls (awake) is not prohibited/closed at all.
In fact, it would be a sign of high spirituality (providing that the received data are correct or it would be a sign of insanity
)
Remember, Baha'is are a sect of islamic Shia'.
B- The Quran speaks clearly about the pious believers who meet/hear/see angels in their life:
(Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is God " and then remained on a right course - the angels will descend upon them, [saying], "Do not fear and do not grieve but receive good tidings of Paradise, which you were promised.
We [angels] are your allies in worldly life and in the Hereafter. And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you wish]
{Quran; Fusselat (Detailed) Sura 41; Verse 31, 32}
C- The prophet himself promised his companions (if they persisted on Zikr "prayers and Duaa") by meeting angels Alive:-
(By Him, in Whose Hands, my soul is,
if your state of mind remains the same as it is in your presence with me & in Zikr, the Angels Will Shake Your Hands in Home and Outdoors).
D- More importantly, the whole message of the Quran is not absence or even distant presence of God. Quite the opposite: it's talking recurrently about the Overwhelming Presence of God in everything !!!
{He is the first and the last, the Explicit (Apparent) and the Implicit (Hidden)}
(Quran; Iron Sura 57; Verse 3)
E- So, Muslims (Sufis or not) believe that any one of them could, by spirituality, see/hear/meet angels or even the souls of prophets and martyrs (again .. awake .. not just in dreams)
And with no contradiction with their belief that there's no prophet after their prophet???
As according to Islam, these things are not exclusive for prophets (Mary and Mother of Moses, both weren't prophets and both were hearing/meeting angels)
More than that:
(Al-Khedr) who, according to "The Cave Sura", learned Prophet Moses many hard things about the works of divinity; he wasn't a prophet (while in the same time, was in deep connection with God himself)
(Quran; the Cave Sura 18; Verses 65-82)
6- Last point
The father/master and son/slave transformation is not a big thing.
A. God in Christianity and Judaism still, the Lord/the Master.
B. In Islam according to prophet:
(All the people are children of God, and the most beloved one to him, he who is the most beneficial to his children)
C. Moreover, in Arabic, there's two words for son:
(Ibn & Walad)
- Walad:
"from tawleed/milad" (birth)
So when said must be followed by the parents who actually gave birth to him)
And they are called (Father=Waled/Mother=Waleda).
- Ibn: "from benaa/bana" (build)
And here: Father=Up, Mother=Om
So it can be said followed by different people (i.e. his uncle or even any person who raised or teached him) (e.g. Ishmael the brother of Isaac, is said in Quran to be the father (Up) of Jacob "He was his uncle as well")
It's even can be said about countries (I could say Egypt is my Om, but not my Waleda).
Why saying this?
Because in Quran, the absolute rejection is for saying that Jesus is the {Walad} of God "not the Ibn .. a little objection is here also, but for different reasons)
But the recurrent and persistent objection across the Quran is the Tawleed concept. Why?
Because, philosophically and logically, the born should be from the essence/nature of who gave birth to him.
Otherwise, if son of God means (Ibn) who is raised, protected and loved by God (no objection)
Even, in Bible the literal words of Jesus means this:
( But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children/sons of your Father in heaven)
Matthew 5:44,45
According to this, every believer who is pious and a good doer is to be considered a son (Ibn Not Walad) of God (Not Jesus or even Muhammad "peace is upon them" alone).
7- Lastly, I hope, after this very long and exhausting comment, that many things are clarified.
Alas, if not.
And again,
Anytime, it would be a pleasure for me to hear any question or reply.
Best regards