Re: The Prophet Mohammed, Islam, and the Bicameral Mind
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2024 5:59 pm
A- In general
God according to Ali (Islam) is beyond time and space, omnipresent, pure mind, not inside or outside things, both veiled and unveiled, his distinction from things is logical not ontological....etc
If this is not frank pantheism (Unity/Singularity of Existence), what it would be?
Again, be careful please that we are listening to words of the spokesman/the gate/Aaron of Muhammad. We don't care what any other late scholars would say. We don't give a little consideration to any type or sect of Islam either prevailing today or before. We're are on the very source of Islam here.
This is the essence of the theology of Muhammad (Crystal clear)
And just before moving lastly to talk about voices of God in Islam. It should be mentioned here that when I alluded to this version of pantheism, it's noticed that it didn't earn attention. And that needs some consideration because it really matters as we'll see now.
B- Pantheism means a lot for our topic.
Indeed, the imaginary difference between Islam (as it's publicly misidentified) and christianity is that the later has some glimpses of pantheism (also little disturbed).
I mean that close relationship (in Christianity) of Jesus with God as well the permissiveness (but with vague delineation) for his followers to be like him (sons of their heavenly father). I think it meant to be pointing to that unity of existence.
C- Why pantheism alone differs?
Cause its main proposal is the opposite of your example of landlord. The land is not separated from its lord and if the residents have a problem with this. It's a problem, in themselves, of not having the capability to recognize the land/the lord.
D- A verse and A Re-verse
1- A verse in Quran [2:115]
[And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn there is the Face of God]
Let what and how the scholars interpret it, try it by yourself.
2- Imam Gaafar AlSadeq (Grandson of Ali) was asked by one his followers:
Do people in paradise see God?
(It's very well known that the teachings of Ali and all Ahlulbayt after him is that God can't be seen by eyes because he doesn't have a body or an image, but the response was different this time):
Yes, even in this world، believers see him !
Don't you see him right now???
I hope that things are getting more clear.
E- A question:
Why this theology isn't popular in Muslim world?. Even, it was so prohibited, and very often considered as a blasphemy that deserves killing its proponent?
Many reasons:
1- The political seclusion that Ali and his sons suffered. A seclusion that converted to a military one and aggravated with time up to endangering them at some point of history with the risk of total demise & extinction.
2- The self-effect (selfishness) of human nature
Just give attention to the fact that pantheism is against a personal God. A personal God is actually a reflection of the personality of human being (A self alike the self).
It's not allowed in pantheism for the logical fact that personality in itself is a defect. For the basic requirement for personalization/individualisation is to be limited, to make a boundary between what's is self and what's nonself (other).
The main slogan in Muhammadian theology is:
(God is Greater)
Greater (as Ali said above), not in size and dimensions.
Greater than to be limited.
Greater than .. to .. be .. Personal.
3- In the same sense, pantheism is instinctively abhorred by the public, because they feel that it degrades God's subtlety in their minds.
4- In spite of its auspicious implication that divinity is something deeply rooted in their own nature, Self-effect again, adversely repels this conclusion. As the same applies also to others (e.g. from other religions/races .. etc).
Hence, the net result across all religious cultures up to now is that: Thesis is strongly rejected and Personal gods still reign supreme.
F- Why is this more and more important in discussing the topic of God's Voices?
Cause, As the Prince (the famous surname of Ali) said above, a pantheistic God as in this vision doesn't speak like humans (without pronunciation, without voices and sounds)
His every act and his every creation, are his speech and his words.
God in Islam doesn't stop talking at every little moment.
While from the perspective of personal God thesis, you can find easily that this sort of speech (by voices and sounds) is actually, inevitable.
G- N.B.
This way of thinking, that every creature is a word of God is not just prevailing in Muslim world, it's universal (with no exception, even in the majority who believe in personal God)
That came simply from the teaching of Quran from which the 1st inspired verse was : Read
[Read, in the name of God, Who did the Creation]
[Quran 96:1]
And every muslim child in primary school is learnt that it means (Read the universe, the sensed Quran, the biggest book of God).
H- Does Quran support Ali's Words?
- 1st, You shouldn't miss the historical fact, that Prophet Muhammad never claimed that he heard ever a Voice from God !!!!
- What is believed that Quran came to him through the Archangel Gabriel. Yet, listen this also: he didn't even mention that he heard the voice of Gabriel.
Just read the only 2 verses where the process of revelation of Quran by Gabriel is mentioned:-
α- [Quran 1:97]
[Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, he is who has revealed it (brought it down) upon your heart]
β- [Quran 26: 192-194]
[And it is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds]
[Revealed it, The faithful (Holy) Spirit]
[Upon your heart, to be of from the presagers (Warners)]
Both verses talk cleary about heart recognition/insight. It's revealed to his heart and he transcribed it into words (This is not a speculation)
Quran: (on Quran revelation again)
γ- [Quran 19:97]:
[We, just have eased (facilitated/simplified) it in your tongue (arabic) to promise the righteous with it and warn the hostiles]
δ- [Quran 44:58]:
[Indeed, We have eased it in your tongue that they might be reminded]
Both again talk about something/some facts, that were transcribed/described in words of a particular language. However it could be in any language whatever.
ε- One more verse:
[Quran 41:44]:
[And if We had made it in a foreign language (other than Arabic), they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail?
A non Arabic (the message)! And Arabic (the messenger)???]
Just that?
No .. still there is the big one.
I- Quran confirms Ali's words about Moses for whom God talked without voices or pronunciation.
This verse is decisive in this topic. It denies that any human whoever could ever hear a voice from God
α- [Quran 42:51]
[ And it was not for any human being that Allāh should speak to him except:
I- by revelation
II- or from behind a veil
III - or that He sends a messenger who reveals, by His permission, what He wills.
He is Most High (Ali) and Discreet (Hakim)]
N.B. Hakim in arabic is called on the wise. But its arabic root is from حكم hakama. To reign/to hold tight.
And this explanation is important to clarify the last conclusion in the verse. God is so high and cannot be reached except by revelations/symbols/veils and the likes.
β- The following verse [42:52] confirms this conclusion:
[And in that way, We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command/order/affair]
J- Conclusion.
- God in Islam never speaks like humans (not to Moses or even to Muhammad). In the same time, Every little thing is God's speech.
- Quran was a revelation by heart. This doesn't prohibit hearing voices of angels, but it's very important fact to be declared.
- As we said before in the 1st reply, that according to Quran and Hadith, the vast kingdom of heavens with its souls and angels are open for who wants.
- Not just open, it's strongly recommended to try by prayers and Zikr to communicate with it.
- Another important comment: Yes, there is major sects of Islam that see nothing of this, and that see alot of this as a blasphemy. We simply don't care. Those should be studied on their owns.
For that's Muhammad's {Quran}
and
that is Muhammad's {Ali}.
- Nothing in Islam prohibits that even archangels could be communicated with !
Both Sufism and Shiaa explain the last prophecy as it's the last holy canon that will be revealed to humanity.
- You can read more about sufism to know that they believe that their thousands of leaders/Sheikhs/Saints across history were having the capability to communicate with all ranks of angels and souls. Even they mention talking with God (again by revelation)
- Last word:
There's a very very famous book (By the Sufi leader, Abdul-Jabber Al-Nafari) which is recognized as one of the most precious references in Sufism.
It's called (Al-Mawaqef wa Al-Mokhatabat)
(The Stations/Situations And The Talkings/Speeches)
From its begining to its end, it talks about more than 130 situations and speeches each of which begins with:
{He (God) said to me} !!
God according to Ali (Islam) is beyond time and space, omnipresent, pure mind, not inside or outside things, both veiled and unveiled, his distinction from things is logical not ontological....etc
If this is not frank pantheism (Unity/Singularity of Existence), what it would be?
Again, be careful please that we are listening to words of the spokesman/the gate/Aaron of Muhammad. We don't care what any other late scholars would say. We don't give a little consideration to any type or sect of Islam either prevailing today or before. We're are on the very source of Islam here.
This is the essence of the theology of Muhammad (Crystal clear)
And just before moving lastly to talk about voices of God in Islam. It should be mentioned here that when I alluded to this version of pantheism, it's noticed that it didn't earn attention. And that needs some consideration because it really matters as we'll see now.
B- Pantheism means a lot for our topic.
Indeed, the imaginary difference between Islam (as it's publicly misidentified) and christianity is that the later has some glimpses of pantheism (also little disturbed).
I mean that close relationship (in Christianity) of Jesus with God as well the permissiveness (but with vague delineation) for his followers to be like him (sons of their heavenly father). I think it meant to be pointing to that unity of existence.
C- Why pantheism alone differs?
Cause its main proposal is the opposite of your example of landlord. The land is not separated from its lord and if the residents have a problem with this. It's a problem, in themselves, of not having the capability to recognize the land/the lord.
D- A verse and A Re-verse
1- A verse in Quran [2:115]
[And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn there is the Face of God]
Let what and how the scholars interpret it, try it by yourself.
2- Imam Gaafar AlSadeq (Grandson of Ali) was asked by one his followers:
Do people in paradise see God?
(It's very well known that the teachings of Ali and all Ahlulbayt after him is that God can't be seen by eyes because he doesn't have a body or an image, but the response was different this time):
Yes, even in this world، believers see him !
Don't you see him right now???
I hope that things are getting more clear.
E- A question:
Why this theology isn't popular in Muslim world?. Even, it was so prohibited, and very often considered as a blasphemy that deserves killing its proponent?
Many reasons:
1- The political seclusion that Ali and his sons suffered. A seclusion that converted to a military one and aggravated with time up to endangering them at some point of history with the risk of total demise & extinction.
2- The self-effect (selfishness) of human nature
Just give attention to the fact that pantheism is against a personal God. A personal God is actually a reflection of the personality of human being (A self alike the self).
It's not allowed in pantheism for the logical fact that personality in itself is a defect. For the basic requirement for personalization/individualisation is to be limited, to make a boundary between what's is self and what's nonself (other).
The main slogan in Muhammadian theology is:
(God is Greater)
Greater (as Ali said above), not in size and dimensions.
Greater than to be limited.
Greater than .. to .. be .. Personal.
3- In the same sense, pantheism is instinctively abhorred by the public, because they feel that it degrades God's subtlety in their minds.
4- In spite of its auspicious implication that divinity is something deeply rooted in their own nature, Self-effect again, adversely repels this conclusion. As the same applies also to others (e.g. from other religions/races .. etc).
Hence, the net result across all religious cultures up to now is that: Thesis is strongly rejected and Personal gods still reign supreme.
F- Why is this more and more important in discussing the topic of God's Voices?
Cause, As the Prince (the famous surname of Ali) said above, a pantheistic God as in this vision doesn't speak like humans (without pronunciation, without voices and sounds)
His every act and his every creation, are his speech and his words.
God in Islam doesn't stop talking at every little moment.
While from the perspective of personal God thesis, you can find easily that this sort of speech (by voices and sounds) is actually, inevitable.
G- N.B.
This way of thinking, that every creature is a word of God is not just prevailing in Muslim world, it's universal (with no exception, even in the majority who believe in personal God)
That came simply from the teaching of Quran from which the 1st inspired verse was : Read
[Read, in the name of God, Who did the Creation]
[Quran 96:1]
And every muslim child in primary school is learnt that it means (Read the universe, the sensed Quran, the biggest book of God).
H- Does Quran support Ali's Words?
- 1st, You shouldn't miss the historical fact, that Prophet Muhammad never claimed that he heard ever a Voice from God !!!!
- What is believed that Quran came to him through the Archangel Gabriel. Yet, listen this also: he didn't even mention that he heard the voice of Gabriel.
Just read the only 2 verses where the process of revelation of Quran by Gabriel is mentioned:-
α- [Quran 1:97]
[Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, he is who has revealed it (brought it down) upon your heart]
β- [Quran 26: 192-194]
[And it is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds]
[Revealed it, The faithful (Holy) Spirit]
[Upon your heart, to be of from the presagers (Warners)]
Both verses talk cleary about heart recognition/insight. It's revealed to his heart and he transcribed it into words (This is not a speculation)
Quran: (on Quran revelation again)
γ- [Quran 19:97]:
[We, just have eased (facilitated/simplified) it in your tongue (arabic) to promise the righteous with it and warn the hostiles]
δ- [Quran 44:58]:
[Indeed, We have eased it in your tongue that they might be reminded]
Both again talk about something/some facts, that were transcribed/described in words of a particular language. However it could be in any language whatever.
ε- One more verse:
[Quran 41:44]:
[And if We had made it in a foreign language (other than Arabic), they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail?
A non Arabic (the message)! And Arabic (the messenger)???]
Just that?
No .. still there is the big one.
I- Quran confirms Ali's words about Moses for whom God talked without voices or pronunciation.
This verse is decisive in this topic. It denies that any human whoever could ever hear a voice from God
α- [Quran 42:51]
[ And it was not for any human being that Allāh should speak to him except:
I- by revelation
II- or from behind a veil
III - or that He sends a messenger who reveals, by His permission, what He wills.
He is Most High (Ali) and Discreet (Hakim)]
N.B. Hakim in arabic is called on the wise. But its arabic root is from حكم hakama. To reign/to hold tight.
And this explanation is important to clarify the last conclusion in the verse. God is so high and cannot be reached except by revelations/symbols/veils and the likes.
β- The following verse [42:52] confirms this conclusion:
[And in that way, We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command/order/affair]
J- Conclusion.
- God in Islam never speaks like humans (not to Moses or even to Muhammad). In the same time, Every little thing is God's speech.
- Quran was a revelation by heart. This doesn't prohibit hearing voices of angels, but it's very important fact to be declared.
- As we said before in the 1st reply, that according to Quran and Hadith, the vast kingdom of heavens with its souls and angels are open for who wants.
- Not just open, it's strongly recommended to try by prayers and Zikr to communicate with it.
- Another important comment: Yes, there is major sects of Islam that see nothing of this, and that see alot of this as a blasphemy. We simply don't care. Those should be studied on their owns.
For that's Muhammad's {Quran}
and
that is Muhammad's {Ali}.
- Nothing in Islam prohibits that even archangels could be communicated with !
Both Sufism and Shiaa explain the last prophecy as it's the last holy canon that will be revealed to humanity.
- You can read more about sufism to know that they believe that their thousands of leaders/Sheikhs/Saints across history were having the capability to communicate with all ranks of angels and souls. Even they mention talking with God (again by revelation)
- Last word:
There's a very very famous book (By the Sufi leader, Abdul-Jabber Al-Nafari) which is recognized as one of the most precious references in Sufism.
It's called (Al-Mawaqef wa Al-Mokhatabat)
(The Stations/Situations And The Talkings/Speeches)
From its begining to its end, it talks about more than 130 situations and speeches each of which begins with:
{He (God) said to me} !!