Welcome / Introductions

[benjamindavidsteele]

Welcome to the forum, Kevin. Few people visit here. Almost all the activity is at the Facebook groups. But I don't like social media. I wish people would use this discussion board, instead.

[Tanker62]

Hello JJS,

I'm a newcomer to the forum, on which I registered because I have recently stumbled upon Julian Jayne's bicameralism theory, and my attention was caught since the first lines I've read.
It echoes many of the observations my wife and I have had during our careers (she's a university professor, I'm an interpreter) about the thinking patterns, behaviours and learning processes of the people we worked with; we previously thought these were interesting, but unrelated ideas, but they could all be linked to the "heritage" of a bicameral state of mind.
Because of that, I've ordered the book (there are .pdf's of it online, but I'm already spending a lot of time in front of a computer and would prefer reading it on paper instead of on a screen), have already read a couple extracts from The Origin of Consciousness and articles about this theory from other writers, and it seems that I have entered a fascinating rabbit hole.

I hope I will be able to get a better understanding of the theory once I receive the book, and look forward to discussing it with the members of the forum.

Thank you in advance and see you on the site!

[benjamindavidsteele]

@Tanker62 - Not many people comment here at the forums. I usually forget about it, but it occasionally comes up in web search results. That is how I came to notice your recent comments. I hope that people start using the forums. I used to regularly visit the Facebook group but have since decided to give up social media. Please get some discussions going here. I'll join in when I can.

[Chomer]

Hi. Glad to be here.

[benjamindavidsteele]

Welcome, Chomer!

[Chomer]

Welcome, Chomer!

Thanks, Benjamin!

[Scrampy]

Greetings!

I first read OOCITBOTBM (wow, that's a terrible acronym!) about 20 years ago and it was a profound shift in the way I saw myself in relation to the world and others.

I've found reason recently to revisit the work to clarify and build upon my knowledge.

It's great to see this forum, and the podcast, and the many essays and new books that have been published since.

Thanks for everyone's contributions, and I look forward to learning from you all.

~ Scrampy

[benjamindavidsteele]

Hello, Scrampy!

Jaynes' book had a major influence on many of us. I think I first came across his book in the late 1990s. But I might not have read it until the early 2000s. Since then, I've read much of the other Jaynesian scholarship. But I sometimes get frustrated by the constraints of the field. I think beyond only what Jaynes wrote and talked about. If Jaynes was here, he surely would've long ago explored entirely new areas.

That is the problem when a theory becomes codified into a narrowly defined field of study. The spirit of Jaynes' scholarship gets lost in the work of those who built up their careers around it. Yet some of those who have followed in his footsteps are brilliant. But so many directions and insights are left unexplored, such as linguistic relativity.

BTW not many people use the forum any more. Almost all the activity is at the Facebook group. But I've stopped using FB and don't plan on going back. I'm old school and prefer the forum format. I like being able to more easily find old conversations. A forum is much more organized with separate categories of discussions.

The FB group also got too encumbered with rules, though understandable in order to maintain a quality group. But it's still too stultifying for my taste. If you aren't a published scholar, you're not allowed to link to your own work in posts and comments there. For a working class autodidact like me, I see that as standard class conflict enforced by those with unacknowledged class privilege. If my work isn't welcome there, then I'm not welcome.

Ironically, a Jaynesian approach could go far in explaining such mechanisms of social control, both those intentionally implemented and those that form organically within a socio-cultural order. Determining who is allowed to speak and how is a way of controlling the voices of Jaynesian authorization. That is the problem with a lot of Jaynesian scholarship. It's detached from real world issues, everyday life, and the larger society.

Someone needs to do a Jaynesian analysis of media studies, news reporting, political rhetoric, propaganda, ideology, etc; particularly as they relate to systems and structures. Jaynes thoughts on the container metaphor apply beyond 'consciousness' and have everything to do with how all aspects of society are contained. That is what has changed over the millennia, an increased building boundaries of all sorts.

I would post more often here in the forum, if others would also use it. But it's mostly abandoned. I still get email notifications. So, I know when someone posts. Feel free to comment on old threads or start new ones. If you do so, I'll try to engage.

Ben

[Scrampy]

Greetings Benjamin!

Thank you so much for your reply. It's really great to know that I'm not the only one out there (in here? heh) active in this community.

I am following the FB community too, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion or idea exchange from the group... it's just updates around new podcast releases or articles/books on the subject. Valuable, to be sure, but I am really searching for some discussion and connection with people who are knowledgeable on the subject.

So, it's great to meet you!

I will spend some time going through the existing posts in the forum before posting again, but I'm quite sure I'll have questions!

Stay tuned, and again, thank you for connecting. There is definitely not enough awareness of this profoundly suitable explanation of the nature of consciousness.

~ Scrampy

[benjamindavidsteele]

There are two Facebook groups:

Julian Jaynes - The Origin of Consciousness & The Bicameral Mind
https://www.facebook.com/groups/131293583615946

Julian Jaynes Society
https://www.facebook.com/JulianJaynes

The first group above has all the discussion. The second one is only official news and notifications.

If you're interested in my own speculations, I've written about Julian Jaynes, related scholars, and used his ideas in talking about various topics:

https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... an-jaynes/
https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... eral-mind/
https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.c ... e-hearing/

[Scrampy]

Thank you!

It seems I was only member of the notifications group. I appreciate the links!

I am certainly interested in your thoughts, and I will read your content asap.

I admit, I did a bit of sneaky googling and found your name pop up in a few places. Very interesting stuff you write about.

I've linked to another piece of content about hypnosis and consciousness, you might get a notification since you subscribe to the forum. I'd be interested in your thoughts. I haven't quite finished reading it though... these ideas seem to take some time to settle in my mind, usually after numerous reads, but it's a very interesting subject for me.

My general interests lie in my background of marketing and sales. Initially I got into it for the promise of riches! (hah!) But later found my interest more for 'self defense' purposes. And the topic of hypnosis fits right in there with all that.

The world is a pretty crazy place, but the ideas and thoughts around this subject really do shed some light on the matter... and I find that mostly relieving.

[benjamindavidsteele]

Yep. I'm easy to find online. The last time I checked, there are only two other people by my full name that show up to any great extent in web search results. One is an artist and the other is (or was) a World War II veteran. During the Aughts, I often went by MarmINFP or MarmaladeINFP. But in recent years, I've almost entirely switched to my real full name, except on Youtube. Certainly, all of my published writings are under my birth name (Wordpress, Medium, Substack, Quora). You can also find decades of my comments, if you're curious.

We might be of a similar mindset when it comes to Jaynes' work. Like you, my interest has a more practical and real world focus, also with some concern about 'self defense'. I'm not an academic writing in abstractions, using broad generalizations, or writing about foreign and distant populations. My focus is often on mainstream Western, specifically American, society. Anyone who doesn't see the relevance of Jaynesian understanding to modern American politics, economics, and society is either not paying attention or lacks basic insight.

[benjamindavidsteele]

The world is a pretty crazy place, but the ideas and thoughts around this subject really do shed some light on the matter... and I find that mostly relieving.

I agree. I find some amount of comfort in the understanding made possible by a Jaynesian approach. Actually, I see it as part of a larger approach among certain other scholars in consciousness studies, psychology, anthropology, philology, linguistic relativity, media studies, etc.

In this forum, there is a section called "Brian J. McVeigh's Random Thoughts." McVeigh is the leading Jaynesian scholar. He learned directly under Jaynes. So, he is worth listening to. In some ways, he comes closest to my own way of thinking, if I'm prone to push it even further into radical possibilities.

Below is a recent example of a post by him. I just posted a response to it, but apparently a moderator has to approve of it. Hopefully, it will be allowed. If not, I could post it here for you to see; or I could send it to you by email. Heck, maybe I'll turn it into an article.

How Psyche Scaled Up over Time: Our Mental Architecture Undergirds Kinship and Political Systems
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