Julian Jaynes - Interviewed on Hearing Voices, Complimented on "The Origin of Consciousness"

[Moderator]

Julian Jaynes interviewed on his research into hearing voices by host Steve Martorano on WHDH Boston. Jaynes is also complimented on his book, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by a caller.

Recorded on July 14, 1989. Recording was made by placing a tape recorder next to a radio, and considerable background noise can be heard.



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Transcript:

Steve Martorano: You hearing voices out there? If you are, you may want to talk to our guest, Dr. Julian Jaynes of Princeton University, who says that hearing an outer voice at some point during our lives is a very, very common thing, with upwards of 70, 75% of the U.S. population having had that experience at some point. Now most psychologists have attributed the outer voice -- hallucinations -- to things like schizophrenia. Now that does happen in schizophrenia, does it not, Professor?

Julian Jaynes: Yes indeed it does.

Martorano: Now what I want to do when I come back from this break -- you want me to take a break Theresa? -- what I want to do when I come back from this break is differentiate between the harmless voice and the voice that might be symptomatic of something more serious. 266-1100 if you're hearing voices, give us a call.

Martorano: Our guest from Princeton University, psychologist Julian Jaynes and we're talking about hearing voices. Dr. Jaynes, tell us about what would be a problem if one heard voices.

Jaynes: There are several things. If one hears a voice that tells one to do something anti-social, and most people know what is meant by that, then I think one should get some kind of help or treatment. Or if there is something that just doesn't make sense in what the voice is saying. Like one patient I that I know of who was the principal of a parochial school in Canada, and he heard a voice that he associated as the voice of God -- which it wasn't, obviously -- who told him "fall down and break your teeth and not break you teeth." Something that of course is nonsensical. Well, he came to the hospital with broken teeth. Now this was a case of schizophrenia, and he went under considerable treatment, and he's okay now. But it is -- you have to test what is being said as to whether it is within the bounds of society or not. And most people can judge that.

Martorano: Most people are.... most people are capable of differentiating between a command such as that, or hurting someone. What I'm thinking of is what happens if someone hears a voice telling him to do something which is not anti-social or harmful in any direct way, but is odd or strange, or a commandment to change their lives in a dramatic way, or "quit your job and sail around the world." What about something like that?

Jaynes: That sounds... that sounds appealing in a certain way, but I think that someone should take it with a grain of salt.

Martorano: Or stop working and build a boat because there's going to be a flood.

Jaynes: Well, now that's getting into the religion part again where we have a lot of controversy.

Martorano: Alright let's take another caller this afternoon. Steve, you're next on WHDH, good afternoon.

Caller: Thank you. Dr. Jaynes...

Jaynes: Yes.

Caller: I am calling to thank you very much for your book "The Origin of Consciousness..."

Jaynes: Thank you.

Caller: ... "in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Brain."

Martorano: Oh my goodness! You wrote that book?

Jaynes: Yes.

Martorano: That's... [inaudible] ... that book. No wonder I remember....[inaudible]

Caller: I often listen to this radio station. My father's listening to it, and you're on it. And there's some kind of synchonicity there because I've wanted to thank you for several years.

Jaynes: Well thank you very much.

Caller: Are you working on any other follow-ups to that? Because there were some loose ends.

Jaynes: Yes, I am ... if some loose ends bother you, why don't you write me a letter about it?

Caller: OK where can I write you?

Jaynes: Just, Department of Psychology, Princeton University.

Caller: I will do that sir.

Martorano: Steve was this book helpful to you in a personal way or just in general, do you admire the scholarship? What are you saying?

Caller: I would have to say more to the second. I admire the scholarship. I am a teacher of English at a high school. I'm a student of philosophy on my own, if you will. This book made a lot of sense to me, when looking into consciousness and trying to understand these things. I am a graduate of Gordon College, you may be familiar with that. It is a religious school...